Understanding Simchas Yom Tov
Iyun Chabura - Simchas Yom Tov(1)
Transcript
Okay, so new sugya, we're going to learn sugya for a little bit.
Speaker A:I mean, it's a big sugya.
Speaker A:We're not going to get through all of it, but we'll just from now until Shavuas, we'll do a little bit of the sugya of simchas Yontif.
Speaker A:So there's a gemara here in Chagiga and chesama Aleph on the bottom by the two dots.
Speaker A:So the Gemara says, like this says you should have simcha on your holiday.
Speaker A:Let's just translate that as such that pasha comes le rabos kol mine simachos le simcha.
Speaker A:This pasa comes to include any form of simcha, or I don't know any we have to see, but many forms.
Speaker A:Meaning that there's a variety of ways in which you can accomplish, you can fulfill simcha.
Speaker A:Okay, Mikan amru chachamim.
Speaker A:From here the chachamim say yisrael yotsin yidehovasan benidarim unid davosok.
Speaker A:Okay, so the chacham say from here, from this we say that Yisrael can be yotsei there mitzvah of simchas yantif visamachta bechage through any of these carbanos.
Speaker A:Meaning that the seemingly the hav amina is that you might have thought you need to fulfill simcha aviantif in a specific way.
Speaker A:Or in Misakha's chagiga, the hava min is that maybe you'd have to be using the carbon chagiga, right?
Speaker A:Or the shalme simcha, the shalme todah, or whatever it is that there's certain korbanos on the Yuntif that you bring.
Speaker A:And you might have thought that you have to use those korbanos to fulfill simcha.
Speaker A:So you learn from here, Kamashmalan, that no, you can bring a neder and a dava maisar behema, the kohanim who are able to eat from the chatos and the ashram and the bechor, they can bring that those animals, Right?
Speaker A:So you can use any of these Korbanos to fulfill Simcha's yandev.
Speaker A:Okay, let's look at Rashi.
Speaker A:Rashi says only karbonas.
Speaker A:Ah, exactly.
Speaker A:Good.
Speaker A:But what you see from here is it's still specifically carbonos.
Speaker A:Right?
Speaker A:So Rashi says all the different forms of simchars are implied here because really all you need is simcha.
Speaker A:Ah, but we know he's quoting here in this, in the side it tells us this is a Gemara and koftessama aleph.
Speaker A:So we'll see that later that the Gemara says that the only way to have simcha is through basar is through meat.
Speaker A:Basar who?
Speaker A:And this is basar.
Speaker A:So as long as.
Speaker A:As long as you're using Basar, you can fulfill simcha.
Speaker A:But as you're pointing out, it still sounds like it's specifically basar and specifically basar from a Korban.
Speaker B:Right?
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:So even though we've included many different forms of simcha, but it's still pretty limited, which is kind of interesting because the language of the Gemara is v' sam acht, bececherabos, kolminei, simachos, v simcha.
Speaker A:So how do we learn that?
Speaker A:Does that mean.
Speaker A:And then it says that Yisrael can be yote through these kos that have basar.
Speaker A:Is it limited to that?
Speaker A:From Rashi, it sounds like even though.
Speaker A:From Rashi, it sounds like even though we're being marbe, all form all these different forms of simcha, we're still limiting it to basar from.
Speaker A:From carbonos, or at least to basar.
Speaker A:Rashi doesn't say basar.
Speaker A:From Carbanos, Rashi just says basar.
Speaker A:So meaning it says.
Speaker A:And then it gives a list of korbanos.
Speaker A:But maybe the Gemara is just saying that based on the fact you can be yote with any basar.
Speaker A:That's why any of these korbanas will work always Korbanas, a korban, a dava.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:In this context refers to a Korban, I think like an adarm in a davos.
Speaker B:And then the Gemara doesn't see, doesn't.
Speaker B:It doesn't ex.
Speaker B:It doesn't.
Speaker A:It's not.
Speaker B:What's the word?
Speaker B:Being inclusive.
Speaker B:It may not be inclusive only.
Speaker B:Here's one of the ways you could be right.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:So that's not clear.
Speaker A:Meaning when it says, does that mean.
Speaker B:From this we learned that.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:You could be with any of these kobanas.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:And the truth is, the Gemara here doesn't actually limit it to Basar.
Speaker A:Rashi limits it to basar, and Rashi limits it to Basar based on a different Gemara.
Speaker A:So yesh lodan.
Speaker A:If that's so, Pasha, meaning if we just learned this, this Gemara, and we didn't bring in Rashi bringing in an outside Gemara based in this Gemara, you might have learned the Gemara to say it's not so clear, but you might have learned The Gemara say that you can be in many ways.
Speaker A:You could also might be able to be semech with new clothing.
Speaker A:It might be sameach with.
Speaker A:With good cake.
Speaker A:You know, you might be Ms.
Speaker A:Hamech with.
Speaker A:With.
Speaker A:With singing and dancing.
Speaker A:I have no idea.
Speaker A:And then the Gemara says, since you can be misameach with all these different forms of simcha, so therefore, Amur chachamim, any of these Korbanos will work.
Speaker A:But the Gemara is not saying it's limited to the korbanos.
Speaker A:It's just giving an example that the kabanos is one way to do it.
Speaker A:Or you might read it as no.
Speaker A:When it says komine simachos le simcha, it doesn't mean any form of simcha.
Speaker A:It still means krabanos.
Speaker A:And that's why Mikana Mohamim, all these different carbonos, I don't know.
Speaker A:We have to see.
Speaker A:Or the way Rashi makes it sound like is.
Speaker A:It's.
Speaker A:It's not necessarily limited to Korbanos, but it's limited to basar.
Speaker A:Okay, so Yeshlog had to really understand this Gemara, but now the Gemara continues and says, so Gemara says, yahoo.
Speaker A:AF b ophos, women achos.
Speaker A:You might think, therefore, that you can also fulfill simcha with birds carbonos, meaning now it's going to be chicken, and with menachos, meaning flour carbonos.
Speaker A:So it's going to be not even, you know, meat or chicken at all.
Speaker A:So the Gemara says, so first of all, why would we have that hav amina.
Speaker A:Right?
Speaker A:Ya chol AF b ophos Menachem.
Speaker A:So based on different ways to learn the Gemara, you have to figure out why we'd have that Havamina.
Speaker B:Well, I would say, why wouldn't you have that?
Speaker A:Why wouldn't you have the Havamina?
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:So if you learn like Rashi, it's not Basra, it's not basar.
Speaker A:So why would you have the Havamine then?
Speaker B:Because there are items.
Speaker B:They are.
Speaker B:Again, if.
Speaker B:If it's Korbanus that bring the simcha, then maybe, even though it's not Basra.
Speaker A:You'Re still through the carbon for the fact that it's a carbon.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:And the fact that, I don't know, is it limited to food?
Speaker A:Does eating make a difference?
Speaker A:Is it Dafka through eating?
Speaker A:Mm, I think.
Speaker A:I think it's just not flesh, but I think so.
Speaker A:Okay, so Gemara says, Talmud Lamar comes to teach you that you can't, you cannot fulfill the mitzvah with Ophos or menachos.
Speaker A:Because it has to be something that could be a carbon chagiga.
Speaker A:So it doesn't have to be that you're eating the carbon chagiga to fulfill simcha, but it has to be something that could be the carbon.
Speaker A:Because he's learning as chagiga and ophos and minachos, the stuff you use for the corbin, ophos or minachos meaning an oaf or, you know, grains from mincha.
Speaker A:Those things can't be used for carbon chagiga.
Speaker A:Yatsu elu shein, hagiga bame.
Speaker A:So you can't use ofos or menachos.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:Gives a different source that you.
Speaker A:That we exclude from the.
Speaker A:From the word simcha, that excludes these things that don't have simcha.
Speaker A:Why do these things not have simcha?
Speaker A:They're not as misameach, they're more parshat.
Speaker A:People have ophos all the time.
Speaker A:People don't have a nice steak all the time.
Speaker A:You know, we're spoiled.
Speaker A:We'll steak all the time.
Speaker A:Red meat all the time.
Speaker A:Maybe back in the day didn't have red meat so much, but.
Speaker A:But ofos is not such a big deal.
Speaker A:Minha especially.
Speaker A:That's just, you know, it's a.
Speaker A:It's a cracker.
Speaker A:I don't know, whatever it is, you know, so.
Speaker A:So those things don't bring simcha, which is interesting because if you learn like the first cheetah, the second shita.
Speaker A:Ravashi, amar.
Speaker A:Yeah, sorry.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:The first sheetah is so to me, these different drashas are very different because the Tanakama is learning now that even though we've been marbe many different forms of simcha, it's still limited to anything that the chagiga could come from.
Speaker A:Which makes it sound back to our original question.
Speaker A:Like the simcha has to be from something that's a korban and basar and hagiyo related.
Speaker A:So even though we've expanded it beyond the chagiga, but it's still limited to the chagiga in a certain sense.
Speaker A:Reva Ashi, though, is taking a very different approach.
Speaker A:Ravashi would make it sound like, no, it's really anything that brings you simcha.
Speaker A:The only reason these things are excluded is because they don't really bring you simcha.
Speaker A:We have to figure out why you don't bring you simcha.
Speaker A:What if they do bring you simcha?
Speaker A:You know, I don't know is it contextual?
Speaker A:But Urvashi would make it seem like it's totally not limited to the Korvan chagiga.
Speaker A:Anything that brings you simcha works.
Speaker A:It's just that these things don't bring you simcha.
Speaker A:So potentially, again, I have no idea, but potentially, the question we were starting with of how broad does this definition of kol mine smachos go?
Speaker A:Would sound like it's almost maybe dependent on the machlokos kind of common irvashi.
Speaker B:Which could either be very narrow or very wide.
Speaker A:Right?
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:So just to finish off the Gemara, the Gemara says, so Ravashi is not using the word to teach you that it needs to be something that comes from that could be used as a chagiga.
Speaker A:So what does he do with the word bechage?
Speaker A:The Talmud Kamak use the word bechage to teach you that it has to be something that misha chagiga ba me to exclude ophos and menachos.
Speaker A:But what does ravashi do with that word?
Speaker A:Sigmar says Hahula Kader of Daniel Barketina, the Umar of the Nil Bar, Katina Amarav, Minayin Shahin, Nosim Nashim Bimoid.
Speaker A:How do you know you're not allowed to get married on Yantif?
Speaker A:That it says so your Simcha has to be.
Speaker A:But if you're getting married and have a Simcha Bishtacha, but it has to be Simacht B' alchagha.
Speaker A:So that's why, you know, you can't get married on Yontev.
Speaker A:Okay, fine.
Speaker A:So we want to try and understand this sugya of Simcha's Yuntif.
Speaker A:How far and how wide is the mitzvah Simcha Yontif?
Speaker A:What does it apply to?
Speaker A:Also another interesting question would be if you think it's the pen, Simchas Yontif is totally connected to Korvanos.
Speaker A:Like it sounds like, at least from the Tanakham in this Gemara, then nowadays you wouldn't even have Simcha, the mitzvah of Simchas Yontif anymore.
Speaker A:Whenever we talk about Simchas Yontif now, I guess it's only derabana or it's just like a zecher of it or something like that, you know, like we were talking about last Slga, but.
Speaker A:But it wouldn't be the real mitzvah.
Speaker A:But if you think simchaziantif is not limited to Korbanos, then maybe there is Simchas y tov nowadays there isa.
Speaker A:And maybe again, I'm just thinking out loud, we're just starting this Sagya, but maybe a middle Shita would be that even if you think that it's.
Speaker A:Even if you learn like the tanakama, that it's limited to something that can be a chagiga.
Speaker A:But that might mean that nowadays if you're eating red meat, because that could be a Corbin chagiga, maybe it is dar esa, even though there's no Corbin chagiga nowadays.
Speaker A:But his drasha is not that you actually have to bring it as a korban.
Speaker A:His drasha is that it's the basar for a korban.
Speaker A:The korban chaigiga defines which basar is called Simchas Yontif.
Speaker A:But that could still be dereisa.
Speaker A:Now, but the Mikan Amru chachamim would sound like it has to be from an actual Korban.
Speaker A:Again, unless you read the Mikhan Amur chachamim, not as them telling you what you need to do.
Speaker A:They're just giving you an example of what you could do.
Speaker A:You could use your Korban nedavah, or you could use your maisar behemoth.
Speaker A:They're not saying you have to use one of those things.
Speaker B:Right?
Speaker B:It's not limited.
Speaker A:It's not limited to that.
Speaker B:One of the ways in which you can be.
Speaker A:Right, right.
Speaker A:Okay, so these are the questions that we want to try and figure out.
Speaker A:So if you look in gemara upsachim, I just grab upsachim quickly.
Speaker A:I only took one to the right of the arch skulls.
Speaker A:There should be.
Speaker A:To your right.
Speaker A:Yeah, there.
Speaker A:Now down.
Speaker A:Yeah, there should be a psachem there.
Speaker A:Oh, no, no, they'll go up to the blue set.
Speaker A:Sorry.
Speaker A:Yeah, the blue set.
Speaker A:There should be a psachem somewhere.
Speaker A:Okay, so Kuf, Tess, Ahmad, Aleph.
Speaker A:Okay, so the Gemara says it's like, I don't know, a little less than 10 lines from the top.
Speaker A:Maybe Tana Rabanan at the end of the line.
Speaker A:Chayev Adam.
Speaker A:You see that?
Speaker A:Okay, so a person is chayev to be mis same his children and those of his household.
Speaker A:Interesting.
Speaker A:I don't know.
Speaker A:Like, who is B' nai beso separate from children that you have like a Kiev to someone lives in your house?
Speaker A:Like, are you.
Speaker A:Are you to them the way you are to your children?
Speaker A:In terms of this halacha, I don't know who b' nai beso refers to Anyway, I never thought about that question before, you know?
Speaker A:Okay, so.
Speaker A:Right, it does.
Speaker A:I think it's going to bring up isha here.
Speaker A:Maybe b' nabaso refers to Isha that Doesn't sound that way though, right?
Speaker A:Like b' nabesa wouldn't like it would say, you know, or something.
Speaker A:Who's B' nabaso?
Speaker A:I don't know.
Speaker A:So on the Shalashagalim, a person is chayev to bring simcha to his children and Benebaso Shinamar, it says in the Torah, Hashem tells us that you should have simcha on your.
Speaker A:So what do you bring them simcha with?
Speaker A:So first of all, it's interesting.
Speaker A:Now we're talking about being misameach others, right?
Speaker A:And now we're darshan.
Speaker A:This pasuk, it doesn't say about yourself, it means it says about others.
Speaker A:How do you bring them simcha?
Speaker A:Biyan with wine.
Speaker A:Interesting.
Speaker A:So until now the Gemara chagiga, we were learning about Basar and Carbanos and now all of a sudden we're talking about wine.
Speaker A:Now wine definitely can't be brought as a carbon chagiga.
Speaker A:So according to the ton of comment, how does that go?
Speaker A:We have to figure out how to put these Gemaras together.
Speaker A:Okay, we'll have to see.
Speaker A:Review.
Speaker A:Huda Omer anashim bereilahem.
Speaker A:For men, you give them that which is right to them.
Speaker A:Meaning to say that which brings them simcha.
Speaker A:And for women, you give them that which brings them simcha.
Speaker A:What does it mean for men?
Speaker A:Biyain with wine.
Speaker A:What do you give women?
Speaker A:Tani Raviosef B' Bavel, Bibigdei Tsivonen.
Speaker A:In Bavel, he said you give them, I guess, some sort of color, colorful clothing, berets.
Speaker A:Yisrael with big day Pishtun.
Speaker A:You give them big day Pishtun, Migu Hudson.
Speaker A:Some nice type of clothing.
Speaker A:Meaning in different.
Speaker A:It's contextual.
Speaker A:So men should get wine, women should get clothing.
Speaker A:What kind of clothing?
Speaker A:It depends where you are.
Speaker A:So this sounds very open ended.
Speaker A:Now we're way beyond Karbanos, right?
Speaker A:We're way beyond Basar.
Speaker A:But even here you can question how to read the Gemara when it says and then it gives you specifics.
Speaker A:Do the specifics now make it that this is exactly what meaning for men it needs to be wine and for when it needs to be clothing.
Speaker A:Or do you read it as.
Speaker A:No, the Gemara is giving you examples.
Speaker A:It's saying, what's an example of something that works for men?
Speaker A:Wine.
Speaker A:What about someone who doesn't like wine?
Speaker A:Okay, so something else.
Speaker A:Women, Clothing.
Speaker A:What about, I mean, you know, what about a woman who doesn't want clothing?
Speaker A:So something else.
Speaker A:Right, but it's just giving you examples.
Speaker A:But really, it's a very broad category.
Speaker A:Okay, so that's.
Speaker A:That is the sheetah of Rabbi Yehuda.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:Then the Gemara says, Tanya, we have a Bryce here.
Speaker A:When we had the base of mikdash in Simcha Elabor.
Speaker A:In those times, the only simcha was with Basar.
Speaker A:That's with the Gemara.
Speaker A:That's what Rashi quoted in Hagiga.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:Because the posse says the pasuk talks about bringing a shlamim.
Speaker A:And then it says the Simacha of Neshamakech.
Speaker A:So the mashmau says that the simcha is through the shlomim va aksha of Banao Shemikdash kayam ein simcha leviin.
Speaker A:Now, it changes that the simcha is with wine.
Speaker A:We find that the wine can also be bring simcha.
Speaker A:This is hard to understand meaning, okay, if you don't have the base of mikdash.
Speaker A:So you don't have the base of mikdash if the base of mikdash, if the carbon is the way to have simcha, and you don't have korbanos.
Speaker A:So nowadays it should be there.
Speaker A:It should be.
Speaker B:Of, like, a personal meaning, A personal, like, indulgence.
Speaker B:Simcha, or this is simcha.
Speaker B:Is simcha connecting to Kashbar?
Speaker A:It definitely seems to be a physical simcha.
Speaker A:Everything we're talking about is physical.
Speaker A:Now, I would say, though, that it's.
Speaker A:It's.
Speaker A:It's a.
Speaker A:It's this, but it's also Visamachtu Levnes, and it's Simchat Yontif.
Speaker A:So the way.
Speaker A:So seemingly the two options you just set up might not really be two separate options.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:Okay, so we'll stop here for today.
Speaker A:But.
Speaker A:Well, this is setting the stage for.
Speaker A:We have to figure out how these Gemaras go together.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:Because they seem to be very different.
Speaker A:And what's the how to understand each of them?
Speaker A:And then what comes out of this in terms of what.
Speaker A:What is the Mitzvah Square?
