Simcha in Halacha
Iyun Chabura - Simchas Yom Tov(2)
Transcript
Okay, let's just.
Speaker A:I want to just quickly read the Gemaras we learned last time again, just to have it clar.
Speaker A:And the sugya.
Speaker A:The sugya is big and long, and shavuos is.
Speaker A:We only have today and Thursday, so I don't really think after Shavos we'll pick a new sugya, but we'll just.
Speaker A:We'll get our feet wet.
Speaker A:Okay, so chesam and aleph in the bottom by the two dots I wanted.
Speaker A:We did this last time.
Speaker A:Let's just read it quickly again.
Speaker A:Tanarabanan lemakos le simcha.
Speaker A:So the posse is teaching us not only the corbin hagiga, but also other korbanos that you can.
Speaker A:Oh, well, it doesn't say other forms of simcha.
Speaker A:It doesn't say what, but other forms of simcha.
Speaker A:And from here, the said Yisrael, yoten, yidehovasan, binindar, bachazov, vishok, yakol af.
Speaker A:So all these different types of animals that were brought, they are all corbanos.
Speaker A:So what we were asking last time is, does this mean that we're being mar.
Speaker A:All different forms of simcha.
Speaker A:But when we say all different forms of simcha, we don't really mean all.
Speaker A:We mean all forms of meat from carbonos.
Speaker A:Or do you say.
Speaker A:No, it means all forms of kabanos.
Speaker A:Sorry, all forms of simcha.
Speaker A:And because we are marbeh, all forms of simcha.
Speaker A:Therefore, the Chachamim said, you can use any of these things, but it's not limited to these things.
Speaker A:Right, that was part of our question.
Speaker A:And then the Gemara goes on and asks, how do we know yochel AF be ophos or the minachos?
Speaker A:You might think it should include birds, meaning like chicken.
Speaker A:You can eat chicken as your simchaz, yandif and menachos, which would be just flourish grain, Talmud.
Speaker A:Lomar comes to teach us the pros of misha hagiga ba mehem.
Speaker A:It has to be of the type of thing that could be a carbon chagiga, even if it's not the carbon hagiga.
Speaker A:So that would exclude yatsu elushaga ba me.
Speaker A:You can't use an oath or a.
Speaker A:Or.
Speaker A:Or a flower for the corbin hagiga.
Speaker A:And therefore those are excluded.
Speaker A:It's from the pasukvisa mahta yatzu elusha.
Speaker A:These things don't have simcha, which we said last time would seem to be a broader view than the tanakama, because it's not limited to things that are chagiga it's limited to things that have simcha associated with them.
Speaker A:For some reason, oaf and mincha do not have simcha associated with them.
Speaker A:I guess they're not as special.
Speaker A:They're not as you know, they don't bring about as much joy because they're more regular.
Speaker A:You eat them on a regular day.
Speaker A:Okay, that's the Gemara menachos.
Speaker A:So the Gemara menachos leaves us with a lot of very open ended questions.
Speaker A:What is included in simcha?
Speaker A:What the Gemara for sure is saying is that it's not limited to the Korban hagiga and it's not limited to the Shalmei simcha.
Speaker A:I believe it's called on yantifs.
Speaker A:You brought three korbanos, you brought a olas ri' Iya, you brought a Korban chagiga and you brought what's called, I believe, Shalmei simcha.
Speaker A:Okay, so an ola, a chagigah and a shlomim.
Speaker A:So what the Gemara is for sure saying is that the mitzvah of simcha is not limited to the Korban chagiga and the Shalmei simcha.
Speaker A:It can be broader than that.
Speaker A:How broad does it go?
Speaker A:Is not clear from this Gemara.
Speaker A:Okay, that's the Gemara there.
Speaker A:Now our second Gemara is imsachim.
Speaker A:This gemara is on Kuftesamad Aleph.
Speaker A:This again we saw last time the Gemara says maybe a little less than 10 lines on the top.
Speaker A:Tanar Rabana Chayev, Adam Lismach, Banav, Ubnai Bey.
Speaker A:So beregal.
Speaker A:Now we're talking about bringing simcha to other people.
Speaker A:But it's the same pasuk.
Speaker A:So it seemed to be.
Speaker A:We're talking about the same mitzvah, the same halacha.
Speaker A:What do you bring them?
Speaker A:Simcha with bi' ayin, with wine, Baroylaem v' nashem baroylah.
Speaker A:And says it's not limited to one specific thing.
Speaker A:It's whatever will bring that person simcha.
Speaker A:What is that?
Speaker A:It's with wine.
Speaker A:So again we're also unclear.
Speaker A:Does that mean he's telling us specifically wine or he's giving us an example?
Speaker A:Wine is the status quo thing of what brings a person Simcha.
Speaker A:Personally, I think wine is disgusting.
Speaker A:I have 0 Simcha in drinking wine on Purim.
Speaker A:I like force myself.
Speaker A:I don't know, I can't, I hate it.
Speaker A:So for me, maybe it's not simcha.
Speaker A:Or do you say no, he's defining yin is something people drink as a form of simcha.
Speaker A:So which is true, because even for me, even though I do not like wine at all, I do associate wine with simcha.
Speaker A:Right?
Speaker A:So I don't know, how do you look at it?
Speaker A:Is it individual or is it objective?
Speaker A:Okay, the nashim b' mai.
Speaker A:And what about Nashim Tani Yav Yosef Beb' bav El Bebigdei Tzivone Beret Yisrael B' day Pishtun Miguel Hudson?
Speaker A:In different places, different types of clothing.
Speaker A:But the point is, it's the clothing that is nice and special for them.
Speaker A:Tanya Ben vaseirobim mizmansha Beis hamikdash kayam.
Speaker A:So now be huda beser comes and says, there's a difference.
Speaker A:It depends.
Speaker A:When in Jewish history, we're talking about when they had the beis hamikdash ein simchel basar, then it had to be specifically baser from these.
Speaker A:It has to be specifically, you see, visavakta shlomim va achalta shamcha is associated with the shlomimikdash kaim.
Speaker A:But now we have no beis hamikdash ein simcha Elabayin.
Speaker A:Now it's with wine.
Speaker A:Shnem yisamach lev levav enosh.
Speaker A:Okay, now that's interesting, because does that mean that now it's Deraban and we do it through wine, or does that mean that now we can still fulfill the daraisa through wine?
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:If you think that the mitzvah doreisa is specifically the shlomim, like it sounds like he's saying, right?
Speaker A:And he brings a pasuk, that shows that.
Speaker A:Then why would you say that now that there's no beis hamitos, you could use wine.
Speaker A:That doesn't make sense.
Speaker A:It's not like you say, well, if you can't build a sukkah with proper schach.
Speaker A:So, okay, build it with not.
Speaker A:We don't.
Speaker A:That's not how halacha works.
Speaker A:So either the bisman hay bismanshaen bikt bais, ham'tish kayim, either that's only midira banon, or what you see is that even bisman habais, even though he's saying the mitzvah is with the shlomim, the mitzvah is still broader than that somehow, and there's different ways to do it.
Speaker A:And maybe bisman hamikdash, the way to do it was with the shlomim, but it's not.
Speaker A:It's not limited to that in all contexts.
Speaker A:So we have to see.
Speaker A:Okay, so all of this is.
Speaker A:Is really very unclear.
Speaker A:Very, very open ended.
Speaker A:Okay, so let's look at one more gemara for today in Moid Khatan.
Speaker A:So go back to here.
Speaker A:Sits in the same volume as Hadiga.
Speaker A:My python is after beta.
Speaker A:No, after base is tiness, then the gilla and then moid katan.
Speaker A:Okay, so we are going to Yuddalid Ahmad Bay's.
Speaker A:Okay, so there's one line in the Gemara and a toastos that I want to see today.
Speaker A:So it's also about 10 lines on the top.
Speaker A:Yadalamu bei's.
Speaker A:It says the first one line is avil.
Speaker A:Maybe a little more than 10 lines.
Speaker A:There's a rambam gimel at it.
Speaker A:The first one line is avil.
Speaker A:Yep, got it.
Speaker A:Okay, says the Gemara.
Speaker A:So all of that was just recapping what we did last time just to make sure we have it.
Speaker A:So now the Gemara says Avila Aveluso beregel.
Speaker A:Someone who is an avel who goes into a state of mourning, does not have the chyuvim or does not have the practice is not noheg.
Speaker A:It's an interesting language.
Speaker A:Ave lusoberegel.
Speaker A:You don't do the minhagim.
Speaker A:I don't know if I don't think it means minhagim as opposed to chiyuvim, but does not act with their avelos on the regal.
Speaker A:The reason I say it's an interesting language is because sometimes we do find by avel that the avelos is qayyum.
Speaker A:But you don't do the avelos before hesya, like on Shabbos.
Speaker A:Right, but b'tina you do versus other times that there's no avelos Bechlau, the avelos is not there.
Speaker A:So almost sounds a little bit like the avelos is there, but you don't act with it.
Speaker A:So I'm not sure.
Speaker A:But okay, says our pasuk that we've been learning.
Speaker A:So therefore, what if the person was already in a state of avelos before the regal came?
Speaker A:So before sukkos comes or before pesach comes, the person is in their third day of sitting shiva, let's say.
Speaker A:Okay, so then as yasei de rabim comes the mitzvahs asei of Simchas Yontif, which the Gemara is calling an asei di rabim.
Speaker A:It's a.
Speaker A:It's a public.
Speaker A:It's a group mitzvah, say, and it overrides the assay of the individual of avelos.
Speaker A:Yeah, there's a mitzvah Asei of Avelos, it sounds like also.
Speaker A:But the mitzvahs as say of Simcha's Yontif overrides the mitzvahs I say of Avelos.
Speaker A:Why?
Speaker A:Because Simchaz Yontev is a mitzvah d' Rabim and Avelos is a mitzvah diyar.
Speaker A:Interesting.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:So then the Gemara says, and if it's not a case where the guy lost his parent, let's say, before Yantif, and he's on his third day of Shiva, and then comes Pesach, that's not the case.
Speaker A:Rather, the case is it's the middle of Pesach, and Pesach already started and now one of his relatives dies.
Speaker A:Then lo asi as seydi yahidachi, Aseidi rabim.
Speaker A:You're not going to say that the onset of the mitzvahs Asei of Avelos, which is a mitzvah di yoched, as we said before, you're not going to say that that's going to come and override the mitzvahs Asei that he's in the middle of.
Speaker A:So therefore, again, you're not going to have Avelas and Yontif.
Speaker A:I mean, Yomar is just speaking out that either way it goes, whether it's because he already was in a state of Avelus, or it's because he's now, you know, gonna go into a state of Avelus, Yontif is going to override the avelus, either the existing Avelas or the oncoming Avelus.
Speaker B:Is it logical?
Speaker B:Meaning it's logical that a mitzvah seder rabbin, is stronger than a mitzvah.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:I don't know.
Speaker A:What is.
Speaker A:What.
Speaker A:What does that mean then?
Speaker B:If that's the case.
Speaker B:That's the case.
Speaker B:If that's the case.
Speaker B:So just because it didn't come on yet, why does that change?
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker B:The mitzvah ram is still there.
Speaker A:Right?
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:So that's what the Gemara is saying, is that.
Speaker A:That either way, the mitzvah of the rabbin is going to win out.
Speaker A:Oh, yeah.
Speaker A:Either way.
Speaker A:It's a rhetorical question.
Speaker A:Oh, right.
Speaker A:So either way, the mitzvahs say the Robin wins out, which is.
Speaker A:Which is interesting also.
Speaker A:What does it even mean?
Speaker A:It's an assay to rabbin.
Speaker A:Like, what is.
Speaker A:You have a mitzvah Simcha.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker A:So does everybody else.
Speaker A:Okay, that's true.
Speaker B:So does everybody else.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:Well, so.
Speaker A:So I think that when they have.
Speaker B:A mitzvah it's also.
Speaker A:So I guess that's the point though, right?
Speaker A:Right now you have a mitzvah say that of Av.
Speaker A:Maybe there's happens to be other people on Avelos also.
Speaker A:But it's really your.
Speaker A:Your.
Speaker A:It's specific to you at this time, the mitzvah Simcha's Yontif is on everybody because it's.
Speaker A:Because it's Yuntif.
Speaker A:But like, so what?
Speaker A:I guess so somehow that makes it a more significant or more Khashab mitzvah.
Speaker A:We have to figure out what that means.
Speaker A:Okay, good.
Speaker A:So that's, that's what the Gemara says.
Speaker A:So tosvos on the top of the.
Speaker A:Of the umbrel here, Mashma sounds from this Gemara.
Speaker A:It sounds in this Gemara like very clear that there's a mitzvahs.
Speaker A:Say the orissa of Avelus.
Speaker A:Why?
Speaker A:If you would tell me that Avelus is only then the Gemara wouldn't have to come on to this thing of the Aseid Rabin beating out the assayache.
Speaker A:Just say Simchas Yontif is a doraisa, and therefore it beats out the.
Speaker A:The.
Speaker A:The asei of Avelos, which is only derabanon.
Speaker A:The vet.
Speaker A:That doesn't say that.
Speaker A:It doesn't say that the Avelos, that the Simchas Yontif is a mitzvah der Raisa, which beats out the Avelos, which is a mitzvah der Rabannon.
Speaker A:It doesn't say that.
Speaker A:Rather it has to say.
Speaker A:It has to come onto this chilluk of dirabim versus diyad.
Speaker A:But if you're going to tell me Avelos is only Deraban, then just tell me Doraisa beats derebana.
Speaker A:So, El Amai, what do you see?
Speaker A:You see that Avelus is also de raisa.
Speaker A:Why is Tosos dealing with this?
Speaker A:Was the havmina of Tosos?
Speaker A:Because there actually is a very big machlokas rishonim.
Speaker A:Actually, already going back to the times of the gonim, there's a huge machlokas as to the status of a Velos yom Rishon, if it's a mitzvah, do reisa or not, meaning many of the halachos of Avelos are learned from Sukim, but many, many of them are considered to be asmachtos.
Speaker A:And a lot of the halachos of avilos are only.
Speaker A:There certainly are halakhas of Avelos that are learned out Minat Torah.
Speaker A:But again, it's a question if it's an atzmachta and it's a big machloka as to whether or not any of the khiv avelos is a derais or not, there is a shita.
Speaker A:And this is what Tosis is seeming to say is that yom Rishon is de raisa avail the first day of Shiva is actually din de raisa.
Speaker A:Which parts of it are there?
Speaker A:So which parts aren't?
Speaker A:I have to look it up and do some Hazara from when I learned Hill House of A.
Speaker A:I don't remember 100%, but this is.
Speaker A:But I.
Speaker A:But I do this.
Speaker A:This is a big discussion as to whether or not there's a veilas de rice or not.
Speaker A:So Tosis is saying from this Gemara, let's prove that availus is the raisa, like the sheetah that says it's the raisa.
Speaker A:Okay, so then Tosis continues that which we said earlier, Lomi baya yeme evlod der abana and hainu asiyas malacha.
Speaker A:When it sounded earlier in the Gemara like avelos is only der abanan, that's because it was talking about asiyas malacha, because there's a lot of aspects of avelos.
Speaker A:So the iser to do malachas and avel, maybe that's only derabanon.
Speaker A:But the avelos itself is not darabana denafkalan basmakta, because that's just an asmachta miva hafsa that I turn your holiday into avelus the rights, but the avelos itself is the raisa.
Speaker A:Okay, but now Tosa says like this, and this is what I wanted to see quickly.
Speaker A:And then we'll pick up with the next time mihu near ali.
Speaker A:But Toast says, however near eli da simchas harebanan that actually it's not so simple, because simchas haregel only derabanon, meaning the mitzvah of simchas regal is only deraban visamachta.
Speaker A:Because what is the mitzvah of hainu b' shalme simcha?
Speaker A:That's only with shalom simcha kadisa b' chadiga, and therefore that maybe that's why the Gemara says that.
Speaker A:So why.
Speaker A:So now we no longer have a proof?
Speaker A:Because why did the Gemara say that it's asi asi de rabim and daki asi de yahir?
Speaker A:Why not say it's oh, it's not.
Speaker A:Because maybe they're both only deraban?
Speaker A:So you have no proof from here that avelos is dereisa?
Speaker A:Maybe the reason it didn't say it's doreisa being doha deraban because maybe they're both dirobanan.
Speaker A:That's why it needed to be dirabim versus diyah.
Speaker A:Right?
Speaker A:Now why would.
Speaker A:And this is the part that we want to focus on.
Speaker A:Why would Simcha's yomtif only be de rabanan?
Speaker A:So maybe it sounds like what the Gemara is saying because it's only bishal simcha, right?
Speaker A:Kadi isa b' chagiga.
Speaker A:But that's what I'm confused about now.
Speaker A:Why does it say the Gemara Chagig is the one that explicitly said it's not limited to the shambh Simacha.
Speaker A:Ah, see, seemingly, yeah, it was the other Gemara, but yeah, but hagia was ches.
Speaker A:So that's our gemara.
Speaker A:Our gemara, which said very clearly that it's not limited to the shamma simcha.
Speaker A:So I think what you have to say is that Tosos learns the Gemara there with one of the ways that we suggested, which is that when the Gemara says le rabos kol mine simcha, and then it says it's not kol mine simcha.
Speaker A:It's any form of simcha through the meat of a korban.
Speaker A:It's not limited to the.
Speaker A:To the chagiga or the shal or the shlomim.
Speaker A:It's any korban meat, but it's still limited to Korban meat.
Speaker A:So it's still limited to the base of mikdash.
Speaker A:And nowadays you don't have that.
Speaker A:So it's still going to be nowadays their abanan.
Speaker A:The thing is that the tosis language is that he says, but lehoret shouldn't be limited to shalome simcha.
Speaker A:But maybe he just means kidi' isa b' chagiga, as the Gemara and chagiga says of any korban.
Speaker A:And nowadays we don't have the korban, so it can't be to include those.
Speaker A:Okay, I don't know Tzaraki even further.
